Message-Id: <200109272215.HAA10334@neutrino.kek.jp> To: opc_j.nuint01 Subject: Today's data Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 07:15:11 +0900 From: Makoto Sakuda <sakuda@neutrino.kek.jp> (1) ------- Forwarded Message To: opc.nuint01 Subject: Minutes of OPC meeting (08/Sep/'01) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 19:03:26 +0900 From: Makoto Sakuda <sakuda@neutrino.kek.jp> Dear OPC members, I note the agreement today in **). There are many things that I did not catch. Please correct. **) Second circular in Web will have a scientific program showing the topics without speaker's names to show the outline of the workshop. (I will announce it to OPC before updating the Web.) (We did not have time to discuss the session length. Now, we may have to think how to arrange all talks in 4 days.) Regards, Makoto Sakuda - - - - - ----------------------------------------------------------- 1. Welcome address by S.Yamada (KEK) 2. Objectives and Motivations (Conveners: Sakuda*,Suzuki,Lipari) 1) PRECISE MEASUREMENT OF NEUTRINO OSCILLATION PARAMETERS with LONG-BASELINE ACCELERATOR BEAMS ** 1) Overview --- How much is each neutrino oscillation experiment affected by the systematic errors due to cross sections and nuclear effects? The following talks explain the experment briefly and describe the effect of neutrino-nucleus interactions. (20min ) a) nu-mu->nu-mu and nu-mu->nue at K2K and JHF -- b) nu-mu->nu-mu and nu-mu->nue at MINOS -- ** c) nu-mu->nu-mu and nu-mu->nue at CNGS -- d) nu-mu->nu-tau appearance --- Komatsu (Nagoya) ** e) Measurement of CP violation at Superbeams and neutrino-factory Difference between nu_mu and nu_mu_bar beams should be noted. --- Bernstein or... 2) ATMOSPHERIC NEUTRINOS Determination of neutrino oscillation parameters with atmospheric neutrinos. -- E.Kearns or Kajita/Kaneyuki 3) PROTON DECAYS Prospect of the proton decay experiment and background for proton decay -- Shiozawa (ICRR) or (UNO) 4) ASTROPHYSICS Supernova --- K.Langanke* Leptogenesis --- E. Paschos 5) QCD OR STRONG INTERACTIONS --- Mangano 3. Theoretical Issues of Neutrino-Nucleus Interactions and Nuclear Effects (Conveners: Morfin*, Seki, Lipari, Para) *) What is known in electron-nucleus interactions (e,e') and (e,e'p) about nuclear effects in relation to the corresponding neutrino-nucleus interactions at 0.5 to 10 GeV resgion. 1) NUCLEAR EFFECTS IN ELECTRON-NUCLEUS INTERACTIONS THEORY: V. Pandharipande* - multi-body theory of e-Nucleus interactions T. Thomas (Backup; M. Strikman) - nonP/PQCD look at e-Nucleus int. W. Melnitchouk - Resonance region to DIS, q-hadron duality 2)EXPERIMENT: I. Sick (Backup; R. Milner) - low energy nuclear effects C. Keppel/JLAB (Backup: G. Garvey) - elastic to resonance to DIS nucleon & nucleus 3) PION-ABSORPTION STUDIES R. Redwine - LADS pi absorption experiment results 4) NEUTRINO-NUCLEUS INTERACTIONS INCLUDING NUCLEAR EFFECTS E. Paschos* - Neutrino nucleus interactions and Leptognesis O. Benhar - Final State Interactions in Neutrino Nucleus Scattering J. Marteau - although in MC benchmark session, talk to give the details of physics going into MC (Backup; P. Bernardini - nuclear re-interactions, P. Vogel for sub-GeV presentations) **) It is important to understand the origin of the discrepancy between Marteau's calculation and others. 4. Overview of the existing and new data on neutrino-nucleus interactions and their uncertainties (Conveners: Itow*/Suzuki/Sakuda) *) Specify the accuracy of the cross section measurements and of verifying nuclear effects, even if the measurement is direct or indirect. Review: 1) Nu-nucleus Data and their systematic errors Low energy and DIS -- M.Sakuda J.Morfin i) Quasi-elastic interactions Cross section and MA ii) 1pi production Cross section and MA iii) NC interactions (Elastic and pi production) iv) Total Cross section measurements and Structure fuctions 2) New data on iv) ---- Anatoli Vovenko (IHEP) ** 3) New data from NOMAD --- M.Veltri **) Archive of database of existing neutrino-nucleus interactions -- This is a long term project and we keep it mind. New data: K2K 4) CC (mu + X) 5) CC (mu p + X) 6) NC (pi0) 7) CC (mu-pi0) SK 8) Atomospheric data on NC(pi0)/CC(e) *) Study of the proton decay backgrounds by the measurements / Mu-pi0 study really estimates e-pi0 backgrounds? / Kaon production by neutrino interactions (BEBC?/K2K) 5. Comparison of the benchmark MC and theoretical calculations Conveners: Casper*/Seki/Hayato/H.R.Gallagher **) Casper will discuss with Seki, update the benchmark calculations and propose to the following people a concrete scheme to compare the distributions/calculations before the meeting: Hayato, Gallagher, Zucchelli, Mills, Rubbia ?, Seki/Nakamura, Marteau, Paschos, Lipari ,.... Good communication and coordination before the workshop are important. **) E_nu=0.3-0.5 (low energy) and 5 GeV (high energy) will be included in the benchmarck calculations. 5.1)MC Generators (Casper*) ============================ benchmark and event sample calculations (1.5 hours) 1) NEUT (Hayato) 2) NUANCE (Casper) 3) MINOS/Soudan II (Gallagher) 4) OPERA/NOMAD/DONUT (Piero Zucchelli) ** 5) Nomad/Icarus (Andrea Rubbia) ** 6) MiniBooNE (Mills) ** 7) Icarus (Flavio Cavanna) 8) A brief summary of MC results 5.2) Benchmarck calculations and Theoretical calculations(Seki*) 1.5 hours ======================================================= 9) J. Marteau 10) E. Paschos 11) H. Nakamura ** 12) P. Lipari 13) Gabriel Martinez-Pinedo'* 14) Shri Krishna Singh* 15) Giampaolo Co* > It is important that all groups use the same >parameters for the neutrino-nucleon cross sections, for >example, vector and axial form factors. Then, specify which >models or papers they use for nuclear effects (Fermi-gas model etc). 5.3) Brief summary of comparison of benchmark calculations (MC+Theory) (Kajita and Toki) ---- Coffee break --- 6. Panel Discussion Conveners: Seki*/Hayato/Casper/H.R.Gallagher Chair, Seki; Associate Chair, D. Casper Panel discussions are carried out by: V. R. Pandharipande, Y.Hayato, K. Kaneyuki, P. Vogel, K. Kubodera, K. Langanke, Resonance/DIS G. Garvey R. Milner A. Thomas H. Toki M. J. Vincente-Vacas* C. Ciofi degli Atti* G. Co S. K. Singh* plus? Especially on resonances and DIS. **) Ask G.Garvey/R. Milner to attend. The following six issues are discussed. An leader is assigned for each issue, who is responsible to come up with consensus among the panelers and the audiance on the current status of the issue in 30 minutes. For each topic, the leaders are first to describe his view of the issue briefly (say, 5-10 minutes), and discussions are to follow it. The leaders will be responsible to write a summary for the proceedings. Tentative leaders are listed in parentheses. In MC environment for (nu,l) and (nu,l p), separately: 1) How should Fermi gas model be applied and made realistic? (Vogel/comments; Langanke and Toki) 2) How important nuclear correlations are and how should be incorporated, and how the final-state interactions are best treated? (Pandharipande/comments, Co and Ciofi degli Atti*) 3) How should the pion production be treated? (Vincente-Vacas* /comments by Hayato, Kaneyuki, and Singh*) As an item which is uncertain but likely to have practical consequences: 4) How vector current is made to be conserved in nuclei, off-shell effects should be treated, and how the axial currents and form factors are modified in nuclei? (Kubodera/comments by Thomas) ** 5) Resonances/DIS (A.Bodek ?) <-- Morfin General discussion: 6) The universal neutrino-nucleus MC code. (Casper) Whether and how such a code be constructed? What is its scope (reaction processes and energies etc. to be covered)? What ingredients (physics) should such code(s) includes? Who would actually do the work? 7. Future experiments and facilities (Conveners: Para*,Itow,Walter) 1) merits/disadvantages of the existing neutrino beams (K2K, CERN, FNAL-Booster, FNAL-NuMI,....) - Andre Rubbia 2) new near detector of K2K, its physics goals and potential 3) experimentation at JLAB: what are the existing fecilities/experiments, potential for modifications and upgrades, potential for new initiatives 4) near detector station at NuMI: overview, potential for dedicated experiments, constraints.. - Rob Plunkett 5) - 'small ICARUS' detector as potential technique for studies of low energy neutrino interactions - Flavio Cavanna 6) Cross section measurements at CERN AD, Fermilab Debuncher **) Morfin will talk with Para. 8. Summary and Goals for the next NuInt02 // ------- End of Forwarded Message ************************************************************* (2) From: "Dave Casper" <dcasper@uci.edu> To: <opc.nuint01@neutrino.kek.jp> Subject: summary of video meeting 9/18-9/19 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:36:43 -0700 Message-ID: <001101c142cc$5d4c2f00$6401a8c0@LAGUNA> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C14291.B0EEDDA0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2526.0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C14291.B0EEDDA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Participants: Y.Hayato, M.Sakuda, R.Seki, D.Casper A video conference was held (after some technical difficulties) to discuss the Monte Carlo session of the workshop. Dave sent an invitation to all known neutrino MC experts the day before the meeting, soliciting their interest in producing samples of events in a common format to allow detailed comparisons of the existing programs. Hayato-san was not able to review the mail prior to the meeting due to computer problems, but expressed his opinion that special emphasis should be placed on quasi-elastic reactions and comparison to theoretical calculations. Dave tried to make clear that the comparison of event samples was not a replacement for the sorts of benchmark calculations proposed by Seki-san, but rather an addition to it. Whereas one can compare relatively well-understood processes like QE scattering with theory, there are many aspects of the physics for which there is no theory and hence the only possible comparison is with other Monte Carlos. The question of the organization of speakers was raised by Seki-san. Dave felt that the presently proposed agenda seemed fine and that no major reorganization of the agenda was being proposed. Instead, the more detailed comparisons will perhaps allow the experts to meet in a smaller session during the workshop to discuss the results. Dave also said that QE scattering is in some sense a fairly limited topic and it might be difficult to have an hour-long panel discussion about this topic alone. Since the panel discussion is the first (ever) opportunity for specialists to discuss the challenges of simulating neutrino physics, it may be more appropriate to discuss a full range of topics - QE, final-state interactions, transition from resonant to deep-inelastic, future work on a universal generator, etc. At the end of the meeting, Dave asked Hayato-san what he thought the SuperK collaboration's attitude would be toward: 1) Making Neut event samples public, for comparison with other generators, and 2) Making the Neut source code public, for comparison with other generators. Hayato-san said he would make inquiries about these questions. The conclusions of the meeting were (I think): 1) The present draft agenda will not be changed significantly; perhaps one talk summarizing what has been learned by the event-sample comparison and future plans of the event-generator working group which we hope to establish. 2) We will await some feedback and response from the experts and tailor the event-sample comparison to the wishes of the participants. 3) The program of benchmark plots will be refined in the next few weeks. I have so far received two extremely positive responses to my invitation, one from Flavio Cavanna (Icarus), who will attend, and one from Hugh Gallagher (Soudan/Minos) who is unable to attend for family reasons but willing to participate in the comparison. I attach these responses. Dave dcasper@uci.edu ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C14291.B0EEDDA0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment From: "Flavio Cavanna" <flavio.cavanna@aquila.infn.it> To: <dcasper@uci.edu> References: <004501c13fa6$bbfbb1c0$6401a8c0@LAGUNA> Subject: Re: NUINT'01 Neutrino Monte Carlo Session Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:57:20 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA7A707.D2DC4722@aquila.infn.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C14291.B0EBD060" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2526.0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C14291.B0EBD060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave, I'm very happy about hearing from you and about your proposal for having at some point a common, well established MC generator a-la-LUND. Since my early days in ICARUS (already ten years ago..) I was "frustrated by the necessity of writing my own generators from scratch" and I was dreaming about a nu-LUND MC!! Therfore I'm fully sharing with you the the leading ideas about the organization of the NUINT01 ws. This initial e-mail is just to show up with my interest in it and to say that I'll quickly try to collect and send you information about what I and some other people have done about our own MC generator. The exercise of producing n-tuples with generated events is very good and we can easily produce them according to any format/ structure... I'll send you the information in a few days. best, flavio ps. I'd like to ask you to include the name of my colleague (icarus) Ornella.Palamara@lngs.infn.it in the list of interested people. She wrote a large fraction of our MC code (we call it: GENEVE - GEnerator of Neutrino EVEnts) and both of us are going to come to NUINT01. Dave Casper wrote: > > Hi, > > This mail is an initial contact concerning the Monte Carlo session of > the NUINT'01 workshop to be held December 13-16 at KEK (see > http://neutrino.kek.jp/nuint01/ for additional information on the > workshop). You are receiving this because you have been identified as > the principal author or maintainer of a neutrino event generator used by > one or more past, present or future experiments. > > If you have grappled with the uncertainties and frustrations of > simulating neutrino physics, I hope you are as excited as I am about > this opportunity to come together, discuss and compare notes with others > facing the same challenges. Moreover, we expect that NUINT'01 will be > the first of a series of annual meetings, and we hope to create working > groups which will remain in contact over the years. Planned or proposed > precision measurements with neutrinos will require a much-improved > understanding and description of neutrino interactions, so our work may > benefit the field for years to come. My own hope is that some day a > LUND-like program for neutrino physics can be created, sparing future > experiments the necessity of writing their own generators from scratch > (or at least giving them a widely-available program to compare with) and > eventually allowing improvements to be immediately available to > everyone. It is difficult to imagine the situation where every e+e- and > hadron collider experiment for the past 10 years would have had to > create their own version of LUND - but this is precisely the present > situation in neutrino physics. > > The preliminary plan for Monte Carlo session is two-fold. One part, > being organized by Seki-san (seki@neutrino.kek.jp), will focus on > comparing neutrino generators with theoretical calculations. Seki-san > is preparing a list of "benchmark" plots which participants will be > asked to show at the conference. The second part, which I have > volunteered to organize, is perhaps more ambitious but also perhaps more > interesting to specialists. The idea is to generate samples of > simulated events at several energies and produce Ntuples which can be > compared in a more open-ended way. The motivation is that any > pre-determined set of plots for comparison with theoretical calculations > is by definition limited to fairly simple quantities, and may miss > important differences and features of the various generators. In a > sense, the event sample comparison is more for our benefit as > specialists, in that we will be able to investigate whatever aspects of > the physics are of most interest. A 0'th-order example of what this > might entail would be producing samples of, say, 10K events, neutrino > and anti-neutrino, at energies of 0.5, 1, 2 and 3 GeV. But of course we > have several months to discuss what is both interesting and possible to > do and arrive at a final program. Final state interactions in nucleii > is another area where comparisons may be helpful. Many, hopefully all, > of us plan to attend the Workshop, but those unable to attend can still > contribute by participating in this study. > > A good first step will be simply to confirm your interest in this work, > and perhaps to send a brief summary of your program (name, region of > validity, approximations and models used, output format, etc) and any > other comments you might have. I will create a web page with the > information received which can be updated as we make progress. Please > send your response to dcasper@uci.edu. > > Some issues which should be addressed between now and the workshop > include: > > 1) Choice of samples to generate and compare: > As above. In addition, the question of the target needs to be > considered. The known programs were originally designed > > 2) Creation of a uniform Ntuple format for comparisons: > It is unlikely that the output of half a dozen different programs will > be compatible without additional work. Nevertheless, the output of any > true generator must, in the end, be a list of particles and momentum > vectors, hence there is no reason in principle why translation to a > common format should be difficult. > > 3) "Proprietary" status of the event samples: > We wish to compare as openly as possible, but some experiments may have > reservations about making the results of their generators public in a > wider sense. In particular, publications using the samples provided for > this comparison should, I think, be agreed in advance with the person > who provided the sample. > > 4) Are we missing anybody? > The present list of known MC experts (who are receiving this mail) is: > > Andre Rubbia (Nomad/Icarus) > Dave Casper (SuperK/K2K) > Flavio Cavanna (Icarus) > Geoff Mills (MiniBoone) > Yoshinari Hayato (SuperK/K2K) > Hugh Gallagher (Soudan-II,Minos) > Paolo Lipari (Macro) > Piero Zucchelli (Chorus) > > Looking forward to your responses, and to the upcoming meeting. > > Dave > dcasper@uci.edu ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C14291.B0EBD060 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C14291.B0EEDDA0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment From: "Hugh Gallagher" <gallag@hep.umn.edu> To: <dcasper@uci.edu> References: <004501c13fa6$bbfbb1c0$6401a8c0@LAGUNA> Subject: Re: NUINT'01 Neutrino Monte Carlo Session Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:08:08 -0700 Message-ID: <0f1c01c14157$90b31460$80de6580@hep.umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C14291.B0ED5700" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2526.0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C14291.B0ED5700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave, I am quite excited by your e-mail, I know that in the past our generator (NEUGEN) has undergone real improvements as the result of these kinds of discussions, and I expect the same will result from this meeting. As Jorge may have informed you, I will not be able to attend the meeting as my wife is due to give birth Dec. 21, however I would like to participate in any other way I can. I think your e-mail touches on a lot of important topics and is asking all the right questions. I was particularly heartened to hear that this is envisioned as being the first in a series of annual meetings. One point in your e-mail in particular struck a chord with me and that is the desire to develop a standard generator for neutrino physics. I think that this is a very realizable goal at this point in time, particular as I suspect that other generators are, like NEUGEN, undergoing re-writes in C++ to support future OO-based simulations. I think the time is right to discuss organizing this kind of activity. I will give some thought as to the best way for me to contribute to the meeting from a distance. I am sure there are more things to discuss but I wanted to start off by letting you know that I am quite enthused about this meeting and the activities you have outlined for it. Cheers, Hugh ----- Original Message ----- > ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C14291.B0EEDDA0-- ************************************************************ (3) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:48:18 -0500 From: Jorge_G_Morfin <morfin@fnal.gov> To: Makoto Sakuda <sakuda@suketto.icrr.u-tokyo.ac.jp> cc: Yoichiro Suzuki <suzuki@suketto.icrr.u-tokyo.ac.jp> Subject: Re: Workshop on Low energy neutrino physics (fwd) Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.31.0109191236210.8629704-100000@fsgi01.fnal.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Loop: sakuda@post.kek.jp Hello Makoto, I am happy to say that Manny agrees to give two talks. Other than that not one other session three speaker has given a definite yes: Thomas - no reply Melnitchouk - wants to come, going to China next month may not get permission for another overseas trip. Milner - no reply Keppel - no reply Redwine - no reply Benhar - wants to come, no money and looking for funding Marteau - wants to come, may have personal interference I've sent second e-mails to Thomas, Milner and Keppel. Instead of pushing for Redwine I'm going to invite Ari Bodek who has done experimental work on e-nucleus and neu-nucleus physics although, recently, at somewhat higher energies. After the insanity of last week there is a complete re-thinking of travel, particularly foreign, within the DOE and Fermilab. I received a warning about travel to Japan and Korea because of the US military bases there. I have not changed my plans to participate but there may be pressure on all of us not to travel. Best regards, Jorge ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:49:33 +0200 From: paschos <paschos@physik.uni-dortmund.de> To: Jorge_G_Morfin <morfin@fnal.gov> Subject: Re: Workshop on Low energy neutrino physics Dear Jorge : It will be fine for me to give two different talks: (1) Neutrino Interactions at low and medium energies - including Nuclear Effects, (2) Leptogenesis with Majorana Neutrinos. The talks can be on different sessions. I will need the letter with the invitation as soon as possible. I will also need a rough estimate of the expenses at the Workshop. Which hotels we are staying, how much they cost and other fees. I must apply for all of them. There is also a complication: I am giving the Colloquium in Cologne on the 18th of December and may have to leave a day earlier. In that case I will arrive earlier. Best regards, Manny Jorge_G_Morfin schrieb: > Dear Manny, > > I just checked with my secretary and she remembers it went out within a > day or two of when I gave it to her which was 6 August. Please give me > your fax number and I will fax it to you myself. > Coincidentally, I was going to e-mail you today on an associated > matter. You indicated you wanted to talk about neutrino-nucleus > interaction and Leptogenesis. We actually have two sessions planned which > cover the proposed contents of your talk. The first is the introductory > session giving the motivation and need for more effort in low-energy > neutrino-nucleus theory and experiment where your thoughts on Leptogenesis > would be very much appreciated. The second is the session I am organizing > on the recent theoretical studies of neutrino-nucleus interactions where > your work with Yu (and Pasquali) are important input. Would you be > willing to divide your proposed talk into two talks, one for each session? > If this is acceptable I will include that information in the fax I send to > you. > By the way, the Workshop is 13 - 16 DECEMBER at KEK. > > Best regards, > Jorge > > On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, E.A. Paschos wrote: > > > Dear Jorge: > > I did not receive any letter yet on the Workshop. Isit still planned > > for January ? Yours, Manny > > > > > > ********************************** (4) Invitation Letter Subject: Invitation letter Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 22:06:53 +0900 From: Makoto Sakuda <sakuda@neutrino.kek.jp> Prof. Ruben Saakyan Department of Physics and Astronomy University College London Gower street London WC1E 6BT UK September 21, 2001 Dear Prof. Saakyan, It is our great pleasure to extend our cordial invitation for you to attend "the First International Workshop on Neutrino-Nucleus Interactions in the Few GeV Region" to be held at the Institute of Particle and Nuclear Studies in KEK, Tsukuba from December 13 to 16, 2001, and give a talk on xxxxxxxxxxxxxx. We are deeply convinced that your participation will be very valuable to us. We are looking forward to seeing you at KEK soon. With best regards Sakue Yamada?? Director, Institute of Particle and Nuclear studies, KEK
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